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#1 Guest_Smudgley_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 05:41 PM

Hi, We are looking for a breeder so we can purchase a tortoise. Preferably a baby. I have been told by a breeder that we would not be able to visit her home and pick one as this is not done for the safety of her stock. She tells me this is common practice amongst tortoise breeders and I probably wouldn't be welcome to view the stock of any breeder. Whilst I can kind of understand the logic behind that, it seems strange to me that this is the case. I as the adopter / purchaser (whatever you want to call it) would expect to see the environment these little ones have been raised in.

I wondered if you know weather this is generally common practice?

PS - I e-mailed the breeder to express my thoughts & she was very polite in her reply & I don't think she was offended by my comments. (I did not ask her to change her policy or bend the rules for me, I simply explained my thoughts) She replied stating the reasons she does things the way she does.

#2 Guest_brucefairweather_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 05:51 PM

hi i was at a breeders house wen i picked up my last torts.he did show me some of his torts but he wasnt very keen on showing me most of his breeding stock.can you blame them?you could be any one

#3 Guest_Smudgley_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 06:10 PM

QUOTE (brucefairweather @ Nov 15 2009, 05:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
hi i was at a breeders house wen i picked up my last torts.he did show me some of his torts but he wasnt very keen on showing me most of his breeding stock.can you blame them?you could be any one


It just seems odd to me that you can't see the way they have been reared and the environment they are used to.
I know many dog & cat breeders with expensive animals that wouldn't have this policy. But you live & learn & we are novices when it comes to tortoises.

#4 Guest_kaplumba_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 09:34 PM

QUOTE (Smudgley @ Nov 15 2009, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It just seems odd to me that you can't see the way they have been reared and the environment they are used to.
I know many dog & cat breeders with expensive animals that wouldn't have this policy. But you live & learn & we are novices when it comes to tortoises.



Most decent breeders will have a website illustrating how they keep their tortoises or will be well known on various groups so that people can tell if they are legitimate or not or how they keep their babies and adults. It's a bit different with dogs and cats as no-one is as likely to sneak over the fence in the night and quietly put them in a van and make off with them. This happened in August in Cornwall at the tortoise garden. If you wnated to steal my dogs they would likely be happy to go with you but not quietly, half the neighbourhood would know about it smile.gif

#5 Guest_Hettie_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 10:35 PM


I saw where my babies came from... and their beautiful mum!! Reputable breeders are happy to show you how they keep their torts as they want to ensure you are able to look after them properly.
There are lists of reputable breeders.... I would stick to buying from these for a healthy new tort!! No one wants to buy from someone who comes along just to make a sale without thoroughly checking them out first!! All that glitters is not always gold!!
If in doubt... ask about!! Plenty on the forum can steer you in the direction or breeders that are tried, tested and trusted.

Paula x

#6 Guest_Smudgley_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 10:44 PM

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I can see how it differs from cats & dogs & I do think this lady is a genuine breeder, however not wanting me to visit & not disclosing her address at any time even after the sale for the safety of her tortoises & cash only on delivery sounds a bit odd to me. huh.gif

I can appreciate breeders need to know who I am, but likewise I need to know who they are, anyone is welcome in my home at anytime to view where my new tortoise will be living, but I also want to see where he/she has been brought up and need to know that my expectations of the breeder are met. And that the health & welfare of the tortoises are paramount to the breeder.

I will keep looking to find the right person.

I'm West Midlands, looking for a tortoise as young as possible.

#7 Guest_kaplumba_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 10:59 PM

[quote name='Hettie' date='Nov 15 2009, 10:35 PM' post='34891'] No one wants to buy from someone who comes along just to make a sale without thoroughly checking them out first!! All that glitters is not always gold!!

OH that is very true, some people vet their new owners to the limit. I don't know of any breeders who are jsut up for quick sales though, do you.

If in doubt... ask about!! Plenty on the forum can steer you in the direction or breeders that are tried, tested and trusted.

If you look at different forums they all tend to have breeders lists with the same good breeders popping up time and again. I would never go to someone you have not heard of before without asking a lot of questions. Some babies look absolutely gorgeous but the most gorgeous, if not new hatched ones are usually wild ones which is sad.




#8 Guest_kaplumba_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 11:03 PM

QUOTE (Smudgley @ Nov 15 2009, 10:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks everyone for your replies.

I can see how it differs from cats & dogs & I do think this lady is a genuine breeder, however not wanting me to visit & not disclosing her address at any time even after the sale for the safety of her tortoises & cash only on delivery sounds a bit odd to me. huh.gif

I can appreciate breeders need to know who I am, but likewise I need to know who they are, anyone is welcome in my home at anytime to view where my new tortoise will be living, but I also want to see where he/she has been brought up and need to know that my expectations of the breeder are met. And that the health & welfare of the tortoises are paramount to the breeder.

I will keep looking to find the right person.

I'm West Midlands, looking for a tortoise as young as possible.


Well I just think you can never be too careful and if you are buying a very young tortoise then what difference does it make if you see where the parents were brought up, it does not show you anything at all. The onus is now on the new owner and if the breeder has produced beatiful babies then surely the parents must be kept ok.Good breeders will give brilliant after service and care sheets to match. DEFRA will always tell you if they are genuine or not too.

#9 Guest_Smudgley_*

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 11:23 PM

QUOTE (kaplumba @ Nov 15 2009, 11:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well I just think you can never be too careful and if you are buying a very young tortoise then what difference does it make if you see where the parents were brought up, it does not show you anything at all. The onus is now on the new owner and if the breeder has produced beatiful babies then surely the parents must be kept ok.Good breeders will give brilliant after service and care sheets to match. DEFRA will always tell you if they are genuine or not too.


I think you are missing my point here. I actually think it does matter about the parents. It absoloutely tells me something if I see what enironment the parents live in.
How do I know a breeder has not got thousands of tortoises, kept in dirty conditions or getting them via the pet shop trade and selling them on to make a profit? Cash only on delivery and not disclosing an address doesn't sound dodgy to you?
I am sure most of them wouldn't but I'm not prepared to take a chance.


#10 Guest_Ozric_*

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 12:27 AM

Hi! I think it must be incredibly difficult being a breeder. You've got babies to look after, adult tortoises and as well as that you have to provide some kind of after-sales service. I think it would take a lot of dedication. Then there is the risk of theft which worries even those of us who don't have to let anyone who fancies it a nose-round our facillities. Then there is the risk of your lovely babies not being cared for properly when you know so little about the person buying.

I have seen the breeders' set up's both times when I bought tortoises and I don't know if it helped me or not but I would want to if I every bought a tortoise again.

But if I ever did any breeding with my tortoises I don't think I could cope with people coming round.

#11 Guest_wizzasmum_*

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 04:11 PM

QUOTE (Ozric @ Nov 16 2009, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi! I think it must be incredibly difficult being a breeder. You've got babies to look after, adult tortoises and as well as that you have to provide some kind of after-sales service. I think it would take a lot of dedication. Then there is the risk of theft which worries even those of us who don't have to let anyone who fancies it a nose-round our facillities. Then there is the risk of your lovely babies not being cared for properly when you know so little about the person buying.

I have seen the breeders' set up's both times when I bought tortoises and I don't know if it helped me or not but I would want to if I every bought a tortoise again.

But if I ever did any breeding with my tortoises I don't think I could cope with people coming round.



I think that hit the nail on the head! When I bought a pup many moons ago, I wanted to see the parents and to see them interacting with each other and how they reacted to people etc. Otherwise the pedigree, work of mouth recommendations etc were all I needed. If I was a newby buying a baby tort I would probably want to see the previous home too, but would not be certain how that would help other than to prove they were a legit breeder. To be honest, many years down the line I don't want people coming to my house as you never know who they could pass your address onto in the future. When I meet new owners I always apologise for the fact that security has to come first and for the fact that I have removed my address from the article 10 cert for the same reason. I include a photocopy of a letter from DEFRA explaining that they can get in touch with them if unsure of this practice. If anyone is concerned about this I always ask them to visit any forums and ask if anyone knows me to give a ref. It's worked so far and as I have a waiting list for babies, I would rather do this than take unecessary risks with my security. Many of the people buying babies become internet friends and go on to visit later which is lovely.
Hope this helps
Sue

#12 Guest_wizzasmum_*

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 04:15 PM

QUOTE (Smudgley @ Nov 15 2009, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you are missing my point here. I actually think it does matter about the parents. It absoloutely tells me something if I see what enironment the parents live in.
How do I know a breeder has not got thousands of tortoises, kept in dirty conditions or getting them via the pet shop trade and selling them on to make a profit? Cash only on delivery and not disclosing an address doesn't sound dodgy to you?
I am sure most of them wouldn't but I'm not prepared to take a chance.



Do you fancy saying who this breeder is? If they only want cash on delivery then maybe they are selling a lot of babies and are avoiding the tax man or worse. Not disclosing an address though is not dodgy (with torts) and IS common practice for reasons already stated wink.gif It seems you have already decided this breeder is not for you, which is of course yor prerogative and enables you to move onto a new one - fancy a nice little hermanni lol? - only kidding!
Sue

#13 Guest_Smudgley_*

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 08:58 PM

QUOTE (wizzasmum @ Nov 16 2009, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do you fancy saying who this breeder is? If they only want cash on delivery then maybe they are selling a lot of babies and are avoiding the tax man or worse. Not disclosing an address though is not dodgy (with torts) and IS common practice for reasons already stated wink.gif It seems you have already decided this breeder is not for you, which is of course yor prerogative and enables you to move onto a new one - fancy a nice little hermanni lol? - only kidding!
Sue


I actually got the details from a link via this site and I am sure she is a genuine breeder, so I don't want to expose her details as I think she has been very polite in her e-mails to me. You are right I have decided she's not the right breeder for me and I will continue searching until I find someone who will allow me to visit their set up.


#14 Guest_TPG_*

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 09:43 PM

Hiya,

There is a list of reputable breeders here:-

http://www.tortoise-....uk/site/70.asp

It is unfortunatley quite true and many will not let people visit their homes where they keep tortoises for fear the tortoises will be stolen. I do know of a case where someone was posing as a genuine 1st time keeper and was selling the tortoises at profit on various free-ad sites. This person was very insistant on visiting premises to the point he was making threats to people. Unfortunately not everyone is genuine.


HTH
Kindest Regards
Darren

QUOTE (Smudgley @ Nov 15 2009, 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi, We are looking for a breeder so we can purchase a tortoise. Preferably a baby. I have been told by a breeder that we would not be able to visit her home and pick one as this is not done for the safety of her stock. She tells me this is common practice amongst tortoise breeders and I probably wouldn't be welcome to view the stock of any breeder. Whilst I can kind of understand the logic behind that, it seems strange to me that this is the case. I as the adopter / purchaser (whatever you want to call it) would expect to see the environment these little ones have been raised in.

I wondered if you know weather this is generally common practice?

PS - I e-mailed the breeder to express my thoughts & she was very polite in her reply & I don't think she was offended by my comments. (I did not ask her to change her policy or bend the rules for me, I simply explained my thoughts) She replied stating the reasons she does things the way she does.



#15 Guest_x Carly x_*

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 07:24 PM

I personally wouldn't purchase from someone who wouldn't let me see the torts environment and see their parents.

As someone previously said, you go to expensive cats and dogs home to choose your pup, and it should be the same with tort breeders. Otherwise how do you know they are not imported, or not happy or healthy?

#16 Guest_Hettie_*

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 07:38 PM


I suppose that's where doing your homework is sooooo important, word of mouth from people you trust, references, knowing your breeder and that sort of thing.

Paula x

#17 Guest_wizzasmum_*

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Posted 17 November 2009 - 11:13 PM

QUOTE (x Carly x @ Nov 17 2009, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I personally wouldn't purchase from someone who wouldn't let me see the torts environment and see their parents.

As someone previously said, you go to expensive cats and dogs home to choose your pup, and it should be the same with tort breeders. Otherwise how do you know they are not imported, or not happy or healthy?



You know they are well bred by checking with other breeders to see if they recommend them - I do this all the time. Good breeders are only too happy to recommend others and if you check on a few well known forums etc you will see the same ones popping up over and over. Just contact a few and see what they have to say, you will soon get the picture. If they are imported it will show on the article 10 cert. Breeders details in top left hand box (box1) - country of origin right hand side (box10). Be careful that the details in box 1 do not relate to an importer - DEFRA will always verify this detail. There are far more reasons to see a pup in it's own home with parents ie to check behaviour, defects such as undershot jaw etc, and general cleanliness. Torts happiness is debateable as it's rare you see them smile or wag their tails wink.gif They also love to dig in dirt so are likely in the garden looking disgusting.
As another poster mentioned the fear of their beloved animals being stolen usually outweighs the risk of all and sundry visiting. It works both ways I'm afraid.
As a breeder I have adopted a 'no visit policy' unless I already know the person via the lists or personally. I'm far stricter than I used to be having had my own suspicions re authenticity too on a couple of occasions. It's just not worth the risk.
Hope this helps




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