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Hibernate Or Not?


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#1 Guest_PennyTort_*

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 09:06 AM

Hi All

I have only had my 2 year old hermanns since March this year. Earlier this year the vet said I shouldn't hibernate them this year. I was quite happy with that because all the more time to spent with them.

However, on reading posts here I am in a quandry what to do.

Puzzle is 9.5 cm and weighs 194 grams. Jigsaw is 8.7 cm and weights 138 grams. Puzzle has grown much more than Jigsaw, and seems to be the more dominant of the two.

In March Puzzle was 8.4cm in length and weighed 120 grams, whilst Jigsaw was 8.7cm and has not grown in length, also weighed 120 grams.

I am more than happy to keep them going through the winter, as I don't know if they were hibernated before i got them. They both are eating and "doing their thing". They go outside most days, but if its cold, rainy and windy they are kept indoors. I haven't set up outside heating yet, that is a project for next year.

Should I stick with plan A or should I consider hibernating them, and for how long and when.....?

Pennytort :wacko: xx

#2 Guest_Freddy McGavin_*

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 07:20 PM

Hi Pennytort,
I would be very reluctant to go against the advice of a vet on this matter. Strictly speaking you could hibernate them for the recommended time of 8 weeks. But as they have not been hibernated before I think you should keep them indoors with additional heat over the winter and definitely hibernate them next year. Hope this helps.
Kind Regards
Freddy

#3 Guest_Stellanne_*

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 07:36 PM

Hello Pennytort, Michelle has been hibernated every year but has been poorly this year and I have been advised by my vet to keep her awake.... However I have taken care of two six yr old torts who have never been hibernated. Planning to do a short hibernation with them..... Once they are disturbed naturally I will presume they need to be up... Michelle will be spending Christmas with us. Do you think she will miss her friends x x

#4 Guest_Hettie_*

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 08:26 PM

Hi Pennytort,
I agree with Freddy and would not go against the advice of the vet.
Was his reason for not hibernating them due to their weight? If so you could always contact him again and tell him their new weights and how well they have been doing and see if he still thinks they should still be kept up?

Paula x

#5 Guest_Freddy McGavin_*

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Posted 17 September 2011 - 09:00 PM

Hi Pennytort,
I agree with Freddy and would not go against the advice of the vet.
Was his reason for not hibernating them due to their weight? If so you could always contact him again and tell him their new weights and how well they have been doing and see if he still thinks they should still be kept up?

Paula x


I think Paula's idea of contacting the vet is an excellent one. I would be a little concerned about Jigsaws weight though, as if she were to lose more than 13 grammes or 10% of her body weight in hibernation she could be in trouble. It would be best to check it out with the vet.Take care.
Kind Regards
Freddy

#6 Guest_PennyTort_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 10:00 AM

Hi All

Thanks for your help. I have been a little worried about Jigsaw, because she (I think) lost 8 gramms between July and now, but has put on a couple of grams over the last two weeks, and I have been thinking of taking her to the reptile vet for a check up, so I will arrange a visit next week. She is eating, and tends to be extremely active, where as Puzzle is far more laid back, tends to eat and sleep, with the odd mooch around during the day. The do have a good diet of weeds with a sprinkle of nutrobal daily.

Changing the subject slightly, I have been wondering if they are the same subspecies, because Puzzle's carapace has double lines going down the shell, whereas Jigsaw (smaller one) has single lines. On the assumption that they are both well, why has Puzzle grown so much and overtaken Jigsaw?

Unfortunately, I was really let down by an acquaintance who owns a pet shop. We had lots of discussions with him, and I did loads of research before deciding on chosing the hermann species. I gave him my wish list, ie bred in this country and I wanted them to be at least a year old. He ordered them in for me, and when I saw them, Puzzle had a slightly bumpy shell, whereas Jigsaw was smooth. It was only on collection when I got their certificates that I discovered that they had been imported from Croatia, and supposedly captive bred! I didn't feel able to turn them down, because I knew I could give them a good home, and they had been through a lot already. Thats why I took them to the reptile vet when we first got them, because I wanted to make sure that they were healthy, considering that they had been imported. He gave them both a clean bill of health, but advised not to hibernate them this year.

Pennytort x

#7 Guest_PennyTort_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 10:46 AM

Hi I have doing a bit of research, and I think I may have two different sub species. Jigsaw appears to be a hermanni hermanni and Puzzle is a hermani boettgeri (how do you pronounce it?!).

We have had a family discussion, and compared all the pictures to the attached information. My next question will be... Can they stay together, seeing that they have been together since March....

http://www.shelledwa...hread.php?t=243

Pennytort

#8 Guest_Freddy McGavin_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 12:13 PM

Hi Pennytort,
Hermanni Hermanni are a smaller breed of tortoise than Boettgeri. This might account for the size difference between Jigsaw and Puzzle. Although they are still young and relatively small their size difference and sex will become more apparent as they grow older and they may need to be separated in case Puzzle does damage to Jigsaw. Indeed, one tort may turn out to be male and the other female and it is not recommended that different breeds of torts be cross bred. I think, unless both turn out to be female, you will have to think seriously about separating them at some point in the near future. Anyway Pennytort, I wish you the best of luck with your visit to the vet. Hopefully there will be others along shortly to offer you more helpful advice. Take care.
Kind Regards
Freddy

#9 Guest_terrypin_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 08:38 PM

Hi I have doing a bit of research, and I think I may have two different sub species. Jigsaw appears to be a hermanni hermanni and Puzzle is a hermani boettgeri (how do you pronounce it?!).

We have had a family discussion, and compared all the pictures to the attached information. My next question will be... Can they stay together, seeing that they have been together since March....

http://www.shelledwa...hread.php?t=243

Pennytort

hi Penny tort i wondered if you could post pictures so your tortoises subspecies can be identified before you consider seperation.
terry

#10 Guest_Ozric_*

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Posted 18 September 2011 - 10:40 PM

Posted ImageHi Penny. I agree it would be good if you could post photos of both tortoises including pics of the underside of both animals. It can be really quite tricky to correctly identify the different hermanns. If both are from Croatia then it is most likely they are either Boetgerri or Hercegoveninsis. Not very likely to be hermanni hermanni.

The hermanni hermanni are smaller but all the hermanns are quite variable and some are born bigger than others, some seem quite greedy and dominant and grow faster than others.

If you posted photos then I'm confident we can do you an accurate ID. The hermanni hermanni have a few distinguishing features but the most consistently accurate identifier is to do with relative lengths of seams in the 'plates' on the underside.

Here's one of mine above.

#11 Guest_PennyTort_*

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 09:56 PM

Hi Guys!

Thanks for your replies. I will take some pictures of the "under carriages" tomorrow and post them. Hopefully they will be as clear as your picture Oz!

Pennytort

#12 Guest_PennyTort_*

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 06:49 PM

Hi All

The first picture is Jigsaw - the smaller of the two.
Attached File  P922081322092011_1800201.jpg   74.9KB   63 downloads


The second picture is Puzzle who is the larger of the two and has overtaken Jigsaw in size since March.
Attached File  P922081522092011_1801032.jpg   61.55KB   58 downloads


It would be good to find out if they are the same sub species or not.

Thanks for your help.

#13 Guest_Ozric_*

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 07:32 PM

Hi Penny. Sorry but I would need clearer photos! I suspect they are probably both boettgeri. I suggest maybe not to separate them just yet, and if possible try to get clearer pictures.

#14 Guest_Freddy McGavin_*

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Posted 27 September 2011 - 08:29 PM

Hi Pennytort,
I would agree with Ozric. They both look like Boettgeri. Perhaps you could avoid using the flash on your next pics and maybe display both torts in the daylight. You probably won't need to separate them until you can determine their sex which is probably a few years away yet! Best of luck! ;)
Kind Regards
Freddy :D

#15 Guest_PennyTort_*

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:00 PM

Hiya

Thanks for your help I will take some more pictures, but it won't be until Saturday. By the time I get home from work its already starting to turn to dusk, so the flash will probably go off!

I did go back to the petshop and asked them if they could be different sub species, but they thought that it would be extremely unlikely. Anyway, I will post some pics and you can let me know what you think.

Many thanks
Pennytort x

#16 Guest_Ozric_*

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:09 PM

Hi Pennytort - if are still following this one!

I've had another look at your photos and I am really quite confident that neither of your tortoises are hermanni hermanni. I think it most like that both are boetgerri but as I have never had a hermanni hercegoveninsis I don't feel so sure about that. Jigsaw just might be hermanni hercegoveninsis but I'm sure Puzzle is boetgerri.

I hope you might post some more photos of them including other 'views'.

#17 Guest_PennyTort_*

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 06:43 PM

Hi Oz

I will put some pictures on. Couldn't get close to the computer over the last week or so, both my sons have been playing warhammer! Hopefully I can do some tomorrow.

Pennytort




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