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Cat amongest the pigeons time


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#21 Guest_omare_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 05:49 PM

I have just joined this forum and I have already found much of what has been said very helpful.I think I will stick to my guns and continue to overwinter my 5 year old,still extremely active,tortoise,who spends her winters running around my house eating expensive bags of moxed salads.Spoilt?nooooo.:(


Good for you and thanks for being honest.
Sounds alot like my tortoises, who take over my house all year, but I wouldn't have it any other way.:(

#22 Guest_mattgriffin1_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 08:19 PM

I have just joined this forum and I have already found much of what has been said very helpful.I think I will stick to my guns and continue to overwinter my 5 year old,still extremely active,tortoise,who spends her winters running around my house eating expensive bags of moxed salads.Spoilt?nooooo.:(



I'm not sure how you can regard this as spoiling your tortoise, it is a very dangerous environment for it to be in. Tortoises are not designed to 'run around houses', there are inumerable dangers to it and it is totally unnatural. As for expensive bags of mixed salad, well they are just about adequate if you choose the bags carefully and there is nothing else.
I'm afraid you are not spoiling your tortoise at all but if you are well read you will know this already.

Matt.

#23 Guest_omare_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 08:27 PM


I have just joined this forum and I have already found much of what has been said very helpful.I think I will stick to my guns and continue to overwinter my 5 year old,still extremely active,tortoise,who spends her winters running around my house eating expensive bags of moxed salads.Spoilt?nooooo.:(



I'm not sure how you can regard this as spoiling your tortoise, it is a very dangerous environment for it to be in. Tortoises are not designed to 'run around houses', there are inumerable dangers to it and it is totally unnatural. As for expensive bags of mixed salad, well they are just about adequate if you choose the bags carefully and there is nothing else.
I'm afraid you are not spoiling your tortoise at all but if you are well read you will know this already.

Matt.



It's not dangerous if they're supervised. Mine thrive on a good walk around the house and always have done. They know when I come home from work and bang on their enclosure to be let out, they're not out on they're own all day.
:(

#24 Guest_mattgriffin1_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 08:38 PM

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It's not dangerous if they're supervised. Mine thrive on a good walk around the house and always have done. They know when I come home from work and bang on their enclosure to be let out, they're not out on they're own all day.
:(
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Ok, I accept you can make it as safe as you like but it is still a very unnantural environment is it not? With negligible uv light levels and substandard diet for several months indoors are you not concerned about poor bone and carapace mineralisation?

#25 Guest_omare_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 08:49 PM

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It's not dangerous if they're supervised. Mine thrive on a good walk around the house and always have done. They know when I come home from work and bang on their enclosure to be let out, they're not out on they're own all day.
:(
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Ok, I accept you can make it as safe as you like but it is still a very unnantural environment is it not? With negligible uv light levels and substandard diet for several months indoors are you not concerned about poor bone and carapace mineralisation?
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With respect, when my tortoises come out of their enclosure we have another set up in the rooms they are in for them to enjoy, ie. uv lamp/basking lamp etc. It's just like the enclosure they're use to only alot bigger and they have the fun of interacting with us Humans and gaining our trust. I've found the tortoises that are with us the most are the boldest and are really trusting of our actions, this really comes in useful if we need to do anything to them like give medication etc, which we haven't ever had to as they are healthy, so we can't be doing too bad huh, even though they were reasued and not very healthy before. Our tortoises go outdoors in the summer but can't stay there due to thefts we have had in our area. We wouldn't take a chance on having them stolen, it's alot different to how it was even ten years ago. But in the winter they are not hibernated and so enjoy the life they are use to and appear to thrive on.:(

#26 Guest_mattgriffin1_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:04 PM

I guess there is a fine line between keeping tortoises as 'pets' and all of the connotations which go with that, and keeping tortoises for the interest and enjoyment of the species in as natural an environment as we can provide for them. Which is not to say that those of the latter persuasion do not heap affection and care on the animals in our charge because we do, but maybe from a distance befitting to the animals natural state.

Matt.

#27 Guest_omare_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:12 PM

I guess there is a fine line between keeping tortoises as 'pets' and all of the connotations which go with that, and keeping tortoises for the interest and enjoyment of the species in as natural an environment as we can provide for them. Which is not to say that those of the latter persuasion do not heap affection and care on the animals in our charge because we do, but maybe from a distance befitting to the animals natural state.

Matt.



I totally understand where your coming from but when you think how most animals are kept these days, how many of them are actually living how they would in the wild,say for instance Hamsters. Even Gerbils like to burrow in soil but most are kept in Hamster cages, I know of a few that are. Birds, even cats these days are kept indoors for different reasons, thefts, living on main roads etc, thats not to say they are suffering because of it, they just live differently and learn to adapt. As do tortoises, if I thought mine were suffering because they walked around a house for a few hours a day I would be the first to say, but they really enjoy it.:(

#28 Guest_tyn7439_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 08:56 PM

My tortoise has agood indoor table top enclosure and a good uv source.I let her walk in the house so that her muscles dont waste being in an enclosure .I bath her regularly and grow her food (a good source of info for mixed seeds is 'tlady')and give her a good mixed salad mix with vits and calcium powder.On warm days I put her out for a few hours to walk around my garden as my garden is completely secure and she cant dig her way out.

#29 Guest_omare_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:01 PM

My tortoise has agood indoor table top enclosure and a good uv source.I let her walk in the house so that her muscles dont waste being in an enclosure .I bath her regularly and grow her food (a good source of info for mixed seeds is 'tlady')and give her a good mixed salad mix with vits and calcium powder.On warm days I put her out for a few hours to walk around my garden as my garden is completely secure and she cant dig her way out.



My point exactly, put yourself in the place of a tortoise for a day, see how you would like it not to be able to stretch your legs,always being in the same place, not interacting with anything or anyone, how boring is that. Tortoises are very intelligent creatures and to see them getting bored is heart breaking. No different to keeping a budgie in a very small cage and never letting it out for a fly.:(

#30 Guest_mattgriffin1_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:12 PM



My point exactly, put yourself in the place of a tortoise for a day, see how you would like it not to be able to stretch your legs,always being in the same place, not interacting with anything or anyone, how boring is that. Tortoises are very intelligent creatures and to see them getting bored is heart breaking. No different to keeping a budgie in a very small cage and never letting it out for a fly.:(


Couldn't agree more. I'm certainly not suggesting any animal should be cooped up in an enclosure all the time, this was not my point at all. My concern was for the unnatural environment the animals have to be kept in by those choosing to overwinter and the physiological consequences that this may have.

#31 Guest_mattgriffin1_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:13 PM

I guess there is a fine line between keeping tortoises as 'pets' and all of the connotations which go with that, and keeping tortoises for the interest and enjoyment of the species in as natural an environment as we can provide for them. Which is not to say that those of the latter persuasion do not heap affection and care on the animals in our charge because we do, but maybe from a distance befitting to the animals natural state.
Matt.

#32 Guest_omare_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:15 PM




My point exactly, put yourself in the place of a tortoise for a day, see how you would like it not to be able to stretch your legs,always being in the same place, not interacting with anything or anyone, how boring is that. Tortoises are very intelligent creatures and to see them getting bored is heart breaking. No different to keeping a budgie in a very small cage and never letting it out for a fly.:(


Couldn't agree more. I'm certainly not suggesting any animal should be cooped up in an enclosure all the time, this was not my point at all. My concern was for the unnatural environment the animals have to be kept in by those choosing to overwinter and the physiological consequences that this may have.



Read Andrea888s post, she has 7 all of around 27 years old, she's never hibernated and has had no problems. What does that tell ya.
:(

#33 Guest_omare_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:23 PM

I hate to say it but at the end of the day it's really what works best for the individual. Lots of people adore keeping tortoises but just don't have a cool enough place to hibernate or money to buy a fridge, and even if they did have a fridge most don't know the temperatures that are safe and are afraid of doing their tortoise harm. If it saves tortoises lives not to hibernate because of these reasons then all the better, I would hate for tortoises to suffer just because the owners feel it's the only option. Andrea888 has proved it's not, and it appears shes not the only one.:(

#34 Guest_mattgriffin1_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:25 PM

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Read Andrea888s post, she has 7 all of around 27 years old, she's never hibernated and has had no problems. What does that tell ya.
:(
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It tells me absolutely nothing. I would be very naiive to base my tortoise husbandry on anecdotal reports such as these. And what is 27 years in the life of a tortoise? These tortoises are youngsters for heavens sake, plenty of time for physiological manifestations to become apparent.

Matt.

#35 Guest_omare_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:29 PM

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Read Andrea888s post, she has 7 all of around 27 years old, she's never hibernated and has had no problems. What does that tell ya.
:(
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It tells me absolutely nothing. I would be very naiive to base my tortoise husbandry on anecdotal reports such as these. And what is 27 years in the life of a tortoise? These tortoises are youngsters for heavens sake, plenty of time for physiological manifestations to become apparent.

Matt.
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As I said before, It's what works best for the individual tortoise keeper.
:(

#36 Guest_mattgriffin1_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:35 PM

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As I said before, It's what works best for the individual tortoise keeper.
:(
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Well this statement sums up your point of view entirely Omare. Whats best for the tortoise keeper with no mention of what is best for the poor tortoise.
:-(

#37 Guest_omare_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:40 PM

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As I said before, It's what works best for the individual tortoise keeper.
:(
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Well this statement sums up your point of view entirely Omare. Whats best for the tortoise keeper with no mention of what is best for the poor tortoise.
:-(
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Hey honey, don't get aggressive, been there got the T shirt and the video, we aint never gonna agree so lets just agree to differ. I do whats best for my tortoises in the best way I know how, I'm not the only one on this forum that chooses not to hibernate but I choose to say so, if that upsets you then sorry but I'm being honest. My tortoises are not suffering mentally or physically, my vet would be the first to say.:(

#38 Guest_omare_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:48 PM

Don't judge what you can't see. You haven't seen my tortoises so you really don't have the right to say such things. You choose to hibernate your tortoises I take it, have you see me post replies telling you not to, no, exactly, so please give everyone a chance to air their views without being attacked for it.:(

#39 Guest_mattgriffin1_*

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 10:08 PM

[quote]
[quote]
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As I said before, It's what works best for the individual tortoise keeper.
:(
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Well this statement sums up your point of view entirely Omare. Whats best for the tortoise keeper with no mention of what is best for the poor tortoise.
:-(
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Hey honey, don't get aggressive, been there got the T shirt and the video, we aint never gonna agree so lets just agree to differ. I do whats best for my tortoises in the best way I know how, I'm not the only one on this forum that chooses not to hibernate but I choose to say so, if that upsets you then sorry but I'm being honest. My tortoises are not suffering mentally or physically, my vet would be the first to say.:(
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Please don't patronise and if you re-read my message you will see there is not a hint of aggression in it. I thought we were having a rational and intelligent debate but you appear to have gone on the defensive.
I feel passionately that animal welfare should come first and the needs and fancies of the keepers should take second place to it.
If people choose not to hibernate their animals it should be because they have researched thoroughly and have found sound reasons not to do it (in which case please share them). The paper thin advice which appears to be given here regarding not hibernating based on so and so's tortoises never being hibernated is not good evidence to an enquiring mind. And you are right, people should not feel pressurised to hibernate and it is scary when you do it but when you take on exotic animals like tortoises you have to be prepared 100% to do your absolute best for them and make it your business to research and find out what their husbandry needs are. And if you don't feel you can provide those needs then don't get the animal. It doesn't upset me that you choose not to hibernate but it does upset me that other people are using this website as a source of advice and are being told that 'there there if you don't hibernate that's ok, so and so doesn't' without that being backed up with long-term evidence of the consequences.
Yes we will agree to differ in our opinions Omare.

Matt.

#40 Guest_lisa0307_*

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 09:20 AM

I don't hibernate my tortoises either and I don't feel I need to explain myself to anyone why I choose to do it. As Omare said, it's down to the individual. You choose to hibernate yours and thats fine but you shouldn't disregard the ways others choose. Like Andrea888 has said, London Zoo don't hibernate and so if they thought that they were doing something wrong they would change. You may feel passionately about animal welfare but that doesn't give you the right to speak to Omare like that. We all love our tortoises and do our best but we can't all have the same views.She already said that you'll have to agree to differ but you came back with a comment that said "this sums up your point of view exactly, whats right for the owner and not the tortoise", if you had read what she said properly then you will see that she has explained herself. We don't tell you what to do so we would appreciate if you allowed us to at least have a view. I know lots of people who don't hibernate and have had no problems, whos to say all your hibernations will go smoothly, no one can tell but everyone should do what feels right to them. I think you should apologise to Omare. She has said nothing wrong to you but you have chosen to get nasty, remember what happened to the last people to get nasty on this forum, we don't want it to happen again, do we. Everyone should be entitiled to free speech, not just yourself.:( :( :(




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