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#1 Worried

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 12:35 AM

Hello, looking for advice on hibernation, health, finding out what gender and race, and finding suitable companionship for my tortie. Apologies in advance, this post might be long and I don't quite know where to start!

 

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Info:

 

My mum's friend gave us her tortoise, because she has a big garden and she kept getting lost. She told us that it was a boy, but I'm sure this is wrong. Her name is Lively - that's what our friend named her!

 

We got her in March 2012 after she woke up from hibernation. She's about 7 years old and they've had her since she was a tiny baby. We gave her back to the friend to hibernate her, and were intending to do so again this winter.

 

We have been allowing Lively to live mostly outside, bringing her in at night and when it's cold, allowing her to begin hibernating when she naturally winds down (then giving her back to her previous owner to sleep), and wake up naturally too. Until reading this site, I wasn't aware that you could control their hibernation, I thought whatever annually happens was inevitable. It also never occurred to us to keep her indoors, we think they should be free, but it's become clear that our country isn't warm enough to just "let them be" during some parts of the year.

 

The friend hibernates Lively in her garage, which is cool but not freezing, and winds her down in her cold hallway. Apparently she naturally falls asleep about the 5th of November. The friend believes that a tortie needs to not eat for 10 days before hibernating. This site recommends longer.

 

The problem this year is that the spring was so cold, she only woke up in late April. Then she started wanting to hibernate in early October, so she would have only been awake for 5 and a half months. This can't be healthy, especially because we don't know what time she'll wake up next year. She could be asleep more than she's awake. So, on too cold days, which is most of the time now, we've been letting her roam around our kitchen to delay her hibernation as long as possible. We put her in her bed in our garage at night. Her bed consists of an indoor rabbit hutch, filled with straw and a special heated blanket at one end, which she loves (but which I'm scared will set on fire!). This had messed up her body clock even more when she was still outside, because it meant she was cold during the day and warm at night.

 

The tortoise has always been successfully hibernated, but the more I read the more I'm not sure our friend entirely knows what she's doing. She isn't uneducated about tortoises, but I'm concerned that she doesn't have thorough enough knowledge. She doesn't seem particularly bothered. It would be socially awkward to try to find out if I'm correct. I don't think she has a thermometer in her garage, and I don't think she knows about weight or health problems etc that could make hibernation dangerous. I suspect the successful hibernations have been a combination of luck and happening to have a fairly suitable hibernation location in her property.

 

My questions about hibernation:

 

Is being awake for only 6 months too little? Will this cause health problems? 

If not, how much longer should we delay it for?

If we decide to hibernate the tortoise ourselves, how do you tell if the tortoise is sleeping or dead? (I've never seen a hibernating tortoise.)

Are you supposed to check them every day or does this disturb them?

 

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Food and health:

 

We thought the tortie had quite a good diet. When we got her I researched it and saw that they need dark green leaves, some flowers and that they occasionally eat fruit. So we gave her a few bits of fruit (such as a bit of apple peel, a few grapes, a cube of melon or tomato) every day, and the bulk of her diet would be natural, wild weeds like dandelion and clover, along with the ornamental bushes which have disappeared! We later heard that fruit should only be an occasional treat, but we kept giving them to her regularly because she loves them so much. When I eat fruit outside she chases me around the garden to get me to give her a bit. It's so cute! I thought it didn't matter, so long as she's healthy and still eats enough greens, but now we look at photos of perfect torties, she actually has some slight pyramiding, and her shell is slightly asymmetric. It was like this when we got her, but I didn't realise till today just how flat a Hermann's shell should be. 

 

We intend to get a UVB lamp to make sure she has enough vitamin D, stop her fruit treats and give her access to a wider variety of high-nutrient greens (she currently mostly eats dandelions, clover, other weeds and ornamental shrubs). We've already discovered she likes the giant outside leaves of cabbages! She also doesn't mind rocket. 

 

I know humidity is important for shell health, but since she either lives outside or in a normal human house (ie not under a heat lamp) is it still necessary to bathe her every day?

 

Is there anything else we need to be doing to help her shell grow correctly?

 

Another health query:
 
-After giving her grapes, sometimes she makes a squelchy sneezing noise. Since she's been in the kitchen recently, we saw that after this "sneeze" she left a little puddle of water with tiny bits of mud floating in it. It definitely came out her front end, although I didn't see it come out. What the hell was that?
 

 

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Other info:

 

Our garden is 45 ft X 30 ft, it has a patio near the house followed by a 3ft border, followed by a large unbroken lawn. There are narrow borders along the sides of the garden and bushes and trees at the back. Lively feels too exposed on the lawn and sticks to the borders, edges and bushes. She only comes out on to the lawn to eat weeds. It's difficult for her to get back into the sheltered borders, because of plastic edging. So she doesn't like to leave the safety of the borders more than necessary, as it's too much effort to get back over. This means that the actual area that she regularly explores is quite small. When we first got her, she loved patrolling the "safe" parts of the garden, but now she knows it all and she's bored. During this year, when we put her out in the morning she would just walk straight down to her outdoor house and stay there all day, only venturing out through an adjacent gap in the edging to eat at a nearby weed patch on the lawn. It's sad that she seems so dejected and bored. I'm worried that she wouldn't have got enough vitamin D from hiding in her house, and only being awake since late April.

 

While she's asleep this winter, I'm going to re-do the garden so that the lawn is broken up by plants and bushes. This way, she will always be a few feet away from shelter and will feel happy to explore the entire garden. It will basically make her home bigger, and give it more interesting features. 

 

We can tell that she's lonely and bored, because she loves company and follows us around when we go outside. She literally sprints up to us and comes to sniff our toes. We'd love to give her a little friend. It's sad that she's never seen another Hermann. She just hides in her house all the time.

 

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This month, she's been mostly in the kitchen because it's too cold outside. We put her in her bed in our garage at night. In the kitchen, we've given her a little box to hide in, which she likes. She likes climbing over the bases of the breakfast bar stools. Other than that, the kitchen floor is featureless and the room is fairly small. She's not dejected yet, because she's only been in there a few weeks. Do you have any ideas for temporary things we could put in the kitchen to make it more interesting for her? 

 

 

I have plenty of pictures to show you, but when I try to attach the file, it says "Upload skipped (Error IO)". I can't work out how to use the basic uploader either. Can anyone help me, because I want to show you the pictures for your opinions on her gender, sub-species, and shell condition.

 

Thanks in advance for your help :)

 

This was a difficult, long post to write, I hope it made sense and didn't ramble too much!

 

 

 

 



#2 Guest_Wizzasmum_*

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:59 AM

Hello, looking for advice on hibernation, health, finding out what gender and race, and finding suitable companionship for my tortie. Apologies in advance, this post might be long and I don't quite know where to start!

 

 

You have come to the right place :)

--------------

 

Info:

 

My mum's friend gave us her tortoise, because she has a big garden and she kept getting lost. She told us that it was a boy, but I'm sure this is wrong. Her name is Lively - that's what our friend named her!

 

We got her in March 2012 after she woke up from hibernation. She's about 7 years old and they've had her since she was a tiny baby. We gave her back to the friend to hibernate her, and were intending to do so again this winter.

 

 

 

The tortoise has always been successfully hibernated, but the more I read the more I'm not sure our friend entirely knows what she's doing. She isn't uneducated about tortoises, but I'm concerned that she doesn't have thorough enough knowledge. She doesn't seem particularly bothered. It would be socially awkward to try to find out if I'm correct. I don't think she has a thermometer in her garage, and I don't think she knows about weight or health problems etc that could make hibernation dangerous. I suspect the successful hibernations have been a combination of luck and happening to have a fairly suitable hibernation location in her property.

 

You are right to be concerned and have made all the right observations re her failings ;) I would suggest looking here www.tortsmad.com and here www.tortoises.net both sites based on research both in this country and their natural habitat and tried and tested for thirty odd years in this country ;)

Never ever use heated blankets or heat mats, they are not suitable for tortoises and can cause dehydration and kidney problems.

 

My questions about hibernation:

 

Is being awake for only 6 months too little? Will this cause health problems? 

Yes, eventually. it can take many years to kill a tortoise slowly, not meaning to be scary, but it is.

If not, how much longer should we delay it for?

It will probably be easier to let it go ahead and then cut it short in the new year, when it will be easier to wake the tortoise and get it going again.

If we decide to hibernate the tortoise ourselves, how do you tell if the tortoise is sleeping or dead? (I've never seen a hibernating tortoise.)

If it has wound down correctly (longer than you are doing now) it will respond to touch by slight  movement and will move around in the box in response to temps anyway. A dead tortoise has sunken eyes and stinks :(

Are you supposed to check them every day or does this disturb them?

Do not disturb for the first few weeks and then just touch test and weigh quickly once a month or so, and in the dark/cool to see it is not losing more than 10% of it's body weight.

 

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Food and health:

 

We thought the tortie had quite a good diet. When we got her I researched it and saw that they need dark green leaves, some flowers and that they occasionally eat fruit.

Be wary of dark green leaves as if from the cabbage family they will inhibit the uptake of calcium to the bones. They do not need fruit at all and would rarely find it in the wild.

So we gave her a few bits of fruit (such as a bit of apple peel, a few grapes, a cube of melon or tomato) every day

Very bad as it will upset the gut flora, they do not need sugars at all. ,

We later heard that fruit should only be an occasional treat, but we kept giving them to her regularly because she loves them so much.

Dogs love chocolate but it kills ;)

When I eat fruit outside she chases me around the garden to get me to give her a bit. It's so cute! I thought it didn't matter, so long as she's healthy and still eats enough greens, but now we look at photos of perfect torties, she actually has some slight pyramiding, and her shell is slightly asymmetric. It was like this when we got her, but I didn't realise till today just how flat a Hermann's shell should be. 

Well it should never be flat, but it should be fairly smooth.

 

 We've already discovered she likes the giant outside leaves of cabbages! She also doesn't mind rocket. 

Both very high in oxalates, so not a good idea on a regular basis.

 

I know humidity is important for shell health, but since she either lives outside or in a normal human house (ie not under a heat lamp) is it still necessary to bathe her every day?

No, certainly not, no-one does this in the wild - water the substrate and bathing then becomes unnecessary but do leave access to water in case it wants to drink.

 

Is there anything else we need to be doing to help her shell grow correctly?

Depending on the size, it could be too late to change things, but correct diet and habitat will help future growth. A five year old hermanni would generally be around he size of the palm of your hand or smaller ;)

 

Another health query:
 
-After giving her grapes, sometimes she makes a squelchy sneezing noise. Since she's been in the kitchen recently, we saw that after this "sneeze" she left a little puddle of water with tiny bits of mud floating in it. It definitely came out her front end, although I didn't see it come out. What the hell was that?
Could be a parasitic problem as sugars can make them go berserk. As mentioned, do not feed grapes at all, they are bad for health.
 

 

-----------------

 

Other info:

 

Our garden is 45 ft X 30 ft, it has a patio near the house followed by a 3ft border, followed by a large unbroken lawn. There are narrow borders along the sides of the garden and bushes and trees at the back. Lively feels too exposed on the lawn and sticks to the borders, edges and bushes.

Tortoises do not do well on grass, so she is just doing what comes naturally, if the whole area was rocks and soil she would use it all.

She only comes out on to the lawn to eat weeds. It's difficult for her to get back into the sheltered borders, because of plastic edging. So she doesn't like to leave the safety of the borders more than necessary, as it's too much effort to get back over. This means that the actual area that she regularly explores is quite small.

It's just because it is grass, not good for the shell and not interesting to tortoises which like to dig and climb. When we first got her, she loved patrolling the "safe" parts of the garden, but now she knows it all and she's bored.

That is because, no matter what the surroundings a tortoise will always explore a new area relentlessly, it's a sign of stress, not good health ;)

During this year, when we put her out in the morning she would just walk straight down to her outdoor house and stay there all day, only venturing out through an adjacent gap in the edging to eat at a nearby weed patch on the lawn. It's sad that she seems so dejected and bored. I'm worried that she wouldn't have got enough vitamin D from hiding in her house, and only being awake since late April.

She is obviously more settled now, a tortoise that constantly patrols is not happy. If outdoors to feed she will have plenty d3 but a heater in her hide will warm her up and encourage her to go out more.

 

While she's asleep this winter, I'm going to re-do the garden so that the lawn is broken up by plants and bushes. This way, she will always be a few feet away from shelter and will feel happy to explore the entire garden. It will basically make her home bigger, and give it more interesting features. 

Hills and dips are he way to go with rocks and lumps of wood to climb and strengthen the  muscles.

 

We can tell that she's lonely and bored, because she loves company and follows us around when we go outside. She literally sprints up to us and comes to sniff our toes. We'd love to give her a little friend. It's sad that she's never seen another Hermann. She just hides in her house all the time.

She is just looking for food. Loneliness is a human concept. In the wild you won't see them in groups, just wandering around alone, eating or hiding. It's what they have evolved to do. If she is a male, a friend will likely cause more harm than good - if female, then introduce another female from a reliable source, not a petshop etc.

 

-----------

 

This month, she's been mostly in the kitchen because it's too cold outside. We put her in her bed in our garage at night. In the kitchen, we've given her a little box to hide in, which she likes. She likes climbing over the bases of the breakfast bar stools. Other than that, the kitchen floor is featureless and the room is fairly small. She's not dejected yet, because she's only been in there a few weeks. Do you have any ideas for temporary things we could put in the kitchen to make it more interesting for her? 

Again, the climbing and pacing is a sign of stress as she cannot find her natural habitat. She needs to be in deep substrate and with somewhere to dig in, not straw or hay to hide under as this serves no purpose at all .

 

 

I have plenty of pictures to show you, but when I try to attach the file, it says "Upload skipped (Error IO)". I can't work out how to use the basic uploader either. Can anyone help me, because I want to show you the pictures for your opinions on her gender, sub-species, and shell condition.

Try uploading them to photobucket or a similar site and then transferring them over to here, that should work.

 

Thanks in advance for your help :)

 

This was a difficult, long post to write, I hope it made sense and didn't ramble too much!

No problem, highlighted the replies to hopefully make it easier to follow and understand :)

 

 

 

 



#3 Freddy

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 09:32 PM

Hi There,

Welcome to the forum. You have certainly come to the right place for help. Sue (Wizzasmum) has given you some excellent advice. The only thing I would add is in relation to hibernation. A tortoise must be healthy and a good weight before hibernation. Weight is measured using a length(mm/cm) to weight(grams) comparison on the Jackson Ratio Chart. If a tortoise is healthy and measures up favourably on this chart then it is usually safe to hibernate.

http://www.hermann-t... for adult.html

Tortoises begin their wind-down to hibernation when they have stopped eating altogether. I usually bring my tortoise indoors when the weather gets colder and place her in a cool room not unlike the way your tortoise has been wound down in the past. The only difference is that I provide some heat from a heat lamp or from the central heating of my house so that my torts bodily functions can still work and she can pass poo and finally clear her gut which is essential before she hibernates.  The wind-down period for a 7 year old tortoise is approximately 4 weeks ( much longer then your friends wind-down length of 10 days). http://www.hermann-t...downperiod.html

During this time heat is gradually reduced until the tortoise has completely slowed down and is entirely inactive. After this 4 week wind-down it is usually time for hibernation. 

My preferred method of hibernation (although there are others) is the box method which usually means double boxing my tortoise in a layer of topsoil. A garage is a good cool location and because it is usually attached to at  least one wall of a heated house it doesn't tend to freeze. http://www.thetortoi...bernation04.htm

Finally the maximum length of hibernation for a 7 year old tortoise is approx 20 weeks but usually less. This means you can hibernate your tortoise later and wake him in April or as is the case in the UK hibernate him in November and wake him again in March. 12 weeks is the least amount of time you should hibernate an adult tortoise especially if the exercise is to have any benefit.

This has been my experience of hibernating tortoises for the past 30 years. I hope you find it useful. Hopefully there will be others along shortly to offer you more helpful advice. For now I wish you the best of luck with your tortoise and I hope you enjoy your stay.

Kind Regards

Freddy



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Posted 26 October 2013 - 10:15 PM

A lot depends on he general shape of this tortoise though Freddy. As the owner says it has been here since a baby, it may well not relate well to the Jacksons ratio, which was devised for the average wild shaped adult Mediterranean tortoise. It's also not possible to say what wind down time is applicable without seeing if it is a normal weight for a 7 year old. Wild/outdoor reared 7 year olds would be a lot smaller than one reared under lights indoors and normal adult weight is reached between 10 and 15 years ;)  Not saying it is likely to be grown badly, just thought it would be better to wait to see pics ;)



#5 Freddy

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 10:31 PM

I agree Sue. My advice is given on the basis that this tortoise is healthy and a good weight and as a captive tortoise is probably a little larger and maturer than a wilder specimen. But your right, pictures would certainly help.  :)

Kind Regards

Freddy



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Posted 27 October 2013 - 03:21 PM

All excellent advice, just wanted to add, tortoises actually brumate, they do not hibernate. Only some mammals hibernate. So when They are in brumation they are not actually asleep all the time, they will sleep for about the same amount as they would normally. I think it helps if you understand what your tortoise is actually doing.

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 06:05 PM

I had to 'Google' this Suze to understand it and it certainly makes sense. My torts 'brumate' naturally.... And last year one was on the surface of the hide for quite a while after all the others had dug in. She eventually went under the soil herself.... Though not very deep.
In Tort Lodge on tort dug under another and this one spent most of her hibernation on top of the pile x x x hugs x x

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:37 PM

OOoooh I dare you say this to the TT lol

Hibernation, brumation and aestivation are all periods of dormancy brought about by changes in the weather, resulting in metabolic changes. I think it is nigh on impossible to determine which one out of hibernation and brumation is actually occurring in tortoises. We are led to believe that tortoises can only take on board water and not food once hibernation has begun and yet in certain areas of Turkey and Spain, tortoises have been observed coming up in a warm spell and eating new shoots, before digging back down for the rest of the dormancy period. This would suggest hibernation, but which is correct? I also have observed tortoises slowing down for several weeks under the soil but not at temps low enough for hibernation/brumation. I also think the terminology is often a 'regional' thing, a little like the tortoise/turtle issue in the US. I also see tortoises aestivate, so again, what is the correct terminology I wonder :/



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Posted 27 October 2013 - 08:06 PM

I guess that means that whatever it is called, certain species of torts 'rest' in colder weather.... What we call it and what they do during the 'rest' time is scientifically not truly known. And what we do think we know is that it is a beneficial need for the torts best welfare x x x hugs x x is that right!!

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 08:46 PM

That sounds about it Stella. I have to say I always thought brumation was one of those 'US' terms lol  I've heard it said that the term refers to captive animals versus wild ones, but this does not make much sense to me either  :blush:  I am wondering though, if this is so important, why so many experts out there refer to it as hibernation. Off to do a bit of snooping hee hee.



#11 Beermat89

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 08:57 PM

This is a interesting subject guys,let us know what u find sue :) i thought these exspressions meant the same thing but whos knows lol
Regards matt

#12 Beermat89

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:03 PM

So if torts can go down for a few weeks if a cold snap happens,to rise again if warms up and feed,to then go down to finish hibernation/brumation,the gut isnt obviously totally clear of food/waste.so do we really go over top with the wind down periods in captivity?

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:06 PM

I'm with you Matt... As interesting as it is it is way beyond my comprehension.... If you can understand the differences Sue... Please feel free to share what you find.
I have always thought of hibernation as a 'rest' period... But never fully understood what the process was in the terms of the animal. Maybe that is something I should know about x x x hugs x x

#14 Beermat89

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:11 PM

Yes its very interesting stella,im eager to learn so come on guys get googling lol.i dont even own a dictionary to look up the meanings otherwise i would lol :)

#15 Freddy

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:34 PM

Hibernation[edit]

Main article: Hibernation

Hibernation is a mechanism used by many mammals to escape cold weather and food shortage over the winter. Hibernation may be predictive or consequential. An animal prepares for hibernation by building up a thick layer of body fat during late summer and autumn that will provide it with energy during the dormant period. During hibernation, the animal undergoes many physiological changes, including decreased heart rate (by as much as 95%) and decreased body temperature. Animals that hibernate include batsground squirrels and other rodents, mouse lemurs, the European Hedgehog and other insectivores, monotremes and marsupials. Although hibernation is almost exclusively seen in mammals, some birds, such as the Common Poorwill, may hibernate.

 

Brumation[edit]

Brumation is an example of dormancy in reptiles that is similar to hibernation.[2][3] It differs from hibernation in the metabolic processes involved.[4]

Reptiles generally begin brumation in late fall (more specific times depend on the species). They often wake up to drink water and return to "sleep". They can go for months without food. Reptiles may want to eat more than usual before the brumation time but eat less or refuse food as the temperature drops. However, they do need to drink water. The brumation period is anywhere from one to eight months depending on the air temperature and the size, age, and health of the reptile. During the first year of life, many small reptiles do not fully brumate, but rather slow down and eat less often. Brumation is triggered by lack of heat and the decrease in the hours of daylight in winter.



#16 Beermat89

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 09:40 PM

Thanks freddy!
Thats very interesting :)
Regards matt

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:13 PM

So if torts can go down for a few weeks if a cold snap happens,to rise again if warms up and feed,to then go down to finish hibernation/brumation,the gut isnt obviously totally clear of food/waste.so do we really go over top with the wind down periods in captivity?

Exactly! According to advocates of brumation, they only come up to drink, but that's not proven apparently. The tortoise trust are still using the term hibernation, not sure if that is worth anything :unsure2: My torty bible by Holger Vetter relates to hibernation and I am just about to contact one of my other more knowledgeable keepers to see what their take on this is ;) 



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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:15 PM

I'm with you Matt... As interesting as it is it is way beyond my comprehension.... If you can understand the differences Sue... Please feel free to share what you find.
I have always thought of hibernation as a 'rest' period... But never fully understood what the process was in the terms of the animal. Maybe that is something I should know about x x x hugs x x

 

I'm with you Matt... As interesting as it is it is way beyond my comprehension.... If you can understand the differences Sue... Please feel free to share what you find.
I have always thought of hibernation as a 'rest' period... But never fully understood what the process was in the terms of the animal. Maybe that is something I should know about x x x hugs x x

 I think it is more than a rest period Stella, more of a response to outdoor temperatures. What I am not sure of is who decided it was called brumation over hibernation. It seems a little unclear so far. Hibernation in mammals is also a resting period in response to weather conditions. Still searching.



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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:21 PM

Hibernation[edit]

Main article: Hibernation

Hibernation is a mechanism used by many mammals to escape cold weather and food shortage over the winter. Hibernation may be predictive or consequential. An animal prepares for hibernation by building up a thick layer of body fat during late summer and autumn that will provide it with energy during the dormant period. During hibernation, the animal undergoes many physiological changes, including decreased heart rate (by as much as 95%) and decreased body temperature. Animals that hibernate include batsground squirrels and other rodents, mouse lemurs, the European Hedgehog and other insectivores, monotremes and marsupials. Although hibernation is almost exclusively seen in mammals, some birds, such as the Common Poorwill, may hibernate.

 

Brumation[edit]

Brumation is an example of dormancy in reptiles that is similar to hibernation.[2][3] It differs from hibernation in the metabolic processes involved.[4]

Reptiles generally begin brumation in late fall (more specific times depend on the species). They often wake up to drink water and return to "sleep". They can go for months without food. Reptiles may want to eat more than usual before the brumation time but eat less or refuse food as the temperature drops. However, they do need to drink water. The brumation period is anywhere from one to eight months depending on the air temperature and the size, age, and health of the reptile. During the first year of life, many small reptiles do not fully brumate, but rather slow down and eat less often. Brumation is triggered by lack of heat and the decrease in the hours of daylight in winter.

Is this Wikepedia though Freddy?

I'm failing to understand how babies will not go through the same process, as conditions will naturally dictate (being cold blooded) how long they must remain dormant surely :unsure2: If the cold temps are what prevent them from moving so much (which we know they are) then how can they pop up for a quick drink in the depths of winter and then go back again. As many of us have found, the hydration levels (and therefore lack of weight loss) are due to them being underground in more humid conditions than usual. I know that any tortoises that I have kept that have stayed underground over winter have not popped up for the odd drink as I remove their water supply over winter and would see disturbed ground had then been around.

My take on this is that if the only differences are the metabolic processes, which are obvious due to the fact that a tortoise is cold blooded, then brumation is just another word for hibernation, that someone decided should refer to reptiles, although till trying to work out why :D



#20 Beermat89

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:34 PM

My torts dont pop up either to have a drink during hibernation,unless they are able to lift the lids to the containers which they are in and open the fridge door which out me knowing,but who knows tortoises could be very intelligent creatures unilke me lmao
Regards matt




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