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#21 Freddy

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 11:51 PM

My take on the hibernation/brumation debate is that there is a lot of crossover between the two and that the only real differences are the metabolic processes involved and the fact that reptiles are cold blooded creatures and mammals are warm blooded. I have read a number of articles which do suggest that baby tortoises do not always fully hibernate but remain semi-active over the winter period. I can only guess that this is temperature related and due to milder winters in their natural habitat. It may also be species specific and have something to do with the range and environment were these tortoises live . As regards popping up to drink water. I suppose if a wild tortoise can pop up to eat during hibernation then drinking water isn't such a stretch for the imagination. I suppose a lot depends on hibernation conditions under ground and if they are sufficiently humid. I am by no means an expert in this area but I suspect these  particular eating and drinking behaviours during hibernation are the exception rather than the rule. I would be interested to hear what others think and am prepared to keep an open mind until I learn more. :)

Best wishes

Freddy



#22 Guest_mediterraneansuze_*

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 07:51 AM

Oooops sorry didn't mean to set of a big debate, but it is quite interesting. Maybe a lot of people still use the term hibernation because they are not aware of brumation, i think there is a difference between the way reptiles and mammals shut down due to environmental conditions . . My understanding is that reptiles brumate and mammals hibernate and there is a difference.

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:53 AM

No problem with healthy debate.....................however, after exhausting just about every link and experienced keeper I know, it would appear that the word brumation is very much an Americanism, much like many other altered words of the English language and expressions such as 'off of' etc. I'm not a big fan of Wikepedia, as although it can be very useful if looking for something in a hurry, it is also open to abuse as it can be added to/altered by just about anyone ;) If there is such a difference, I have yet to find it, other than one is called brumation and the other hibernation.  Both are responses to temperature (more in reptiles obviously) and in tha case of mammals, a simple lack of food. The obvious answer is that mammals can keep warm during this period due to  being warm blooded and being able to create a thermal layer around themselves, whereas reptiles cannot. Both though will result in a slowing of metabolism, heart rate etc etc for obvious reasons, 

meanwhile my tortoises will continue to hibernate, I'm certainly not going over to US terms any time soon lol It's bad enough listening to kids on the school bus nowadays ;)



#24 Beermat89

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 01:01 PM

Off the subject slightly but i also keep cornsnake and to able to breed them you have to give them a cooling down period from december through to feb where you drop temps enough to encourage less activity and stop feeding and alot of the caresheets/info across the internet are american as this is where corns come from and they use the term 'brumation' for the period but most english carsheets use the term 'hibernation' so i think its just the americans throwing a spanner in the works of the english language and meanings,so my opinion is they are the same thing but could be wrong!
Regards matt

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:27 PM

I can't be doing with the 'Americanism' of terms... Or Wikipedia..... We ban the site for reference at school for just the reason Sue mentions, it is generally people's views.
I think I will stick to hibernation as a term, as does it really matter what it is called, as long as we are doing it correctly for our torts. X x hugs x

#26 Guest_Wizzasmum_*

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 07:08 PM

As you say Stella, it's just a term and has worked well for hundreds of years ;) I added a comment to the Wikipedia explanation last night just to see if it went on or not lol - it did. Now it's gone ;)



#27 Guest_Stella_*

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:06 PM

Lol..., then it makes you wonder what is acceptable on Wikipedia.... Sorry Sue... Perhaps common sense is not really how it works. Would love to know what you said x x x

#28 Guest_Wizzasmum_*

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:23 PM

Lol..., then it makes you wonder what is acceptable on Wikipedia.... Sorry Sue... Perhaps common sense is not really how it works. Would love to know what you said x x x

Google brumation, then click on the Wikepedia link for Dormancy, scroll down to Brumation and you will see it back on the end of the last sentence lol



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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:35 PM

Your claim to fame Sue........ The last word on Wikipedia x x x x it has to raise a smile x x x hugs x

#30 Beermat89

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:47 PM

Ha i like it sue,see how long before some1 wipes it off lol :)

#31 Guest_Wizzasmum_*

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:19 PM

Oh not long once the word is out lol. Sorry, that was naughty, but just showed how easy it is  to be misled. I will take it off now ;)

Walks off with slapped wrists :blink2:



#32 Freddy

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:25 PM

This link in the 'Notes' section of the Wikipedia 'Dormancy' article makes for fascinating reading nonetheless Reptilian Brumation

Best Wishes

Freddy :D



#33 Guest_Wizzasmum_*

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:01 AM

It is partly because of the ability to choose these conditions in captivity with a view to extended breeding, that I am not a member of some of the forums Freddy. While it obviously works for some keepers, it hardly seems natural to me and somehow equates to the keeping of battery hens, pregnant mares for oestrogen HRT etc etc. I find it inhumane that many keepers do whatever it takes to produce maximum eggs from tortoises without regard of the long term effects. One only has to look at how many breeders seem to sell some of their breeding animals at intervals. Many of us are already aware of what is included within the article, but it still leaves me wondering what is the difference between hibernation and brumation other than a regional preference).

OK off  my soapbox before I get upset ;)



#34 Freddy

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:44 PM

Point taken, Sue. We are certainly glad to have you on this forum! ;) Take care  :)     

Kind Regards

Freddy  :D



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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:33 PM

Not trying one upmanship Freddy, I think all have made valid points ;) I am quite passionate about my shelled friends though and hate to see others exploited.



#36 Freddy

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 12:45 AM

Hi Sue,

I think we are all passionate about tortoises otherwise we wouldn't be on this forum. None of us like to see others exploited.

I think it is great that we can have good natured debates on a variety of tort topics. I for one enjoy giving my two cents worth especially when it comes to subjects like hibernation for which I have some experience and have given advice in the past.

You guys are so well behaved that there is often very little moderating for me to do . It can get boring. lol! :)

I will however try to keep my moderators hat off and join in the fun as long as debates here remain fair, balanced, and good natured.

Enough said ... ;)

Kind Regards 

Freddy  :D



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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:24 PM

We will have to agree to disagree, my understanding ( I'm not an expert ) is that when mammals hibernate they are asleep, when reptiles brumate, they are not asleep all the time, but will sleep as much as they do when not in brumattion, there is the difference . I have this information from experienced tortoise and reptile keepers. So I'll stick with brumation.

But agreed good to discus these things, it's interesting to hear what people think.

#38 Kelly

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:01 PM

I found this interesting article on the matter which has links to lots of referenced material to back up what he says.

 

http://theobligatesc...or-brumate.html



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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:53 PM

We will have to agree to disagree, my understanding ( I'm not an expert ) is that when mammals hibernate they are asleep, when reptiles brumate, they are not asleep all the time, but will sleep as much as they do when not in brumattion, there is the difference . I have this information from experienced tortoise and reptile keepers. So I'll stick with brumation.

But agreed good to discus these things, it's interesting to hear what people think.

Can I just ask if your info came from US Suze?  Just interested, that's all ;)



#40 Freddy

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:51 PM

I prefer to think of 'Brumation' as just another scientific word to describe dormancy in reptiles as opposed to 'Hibernation' in mammals.  

When used to describe a general process of Dormancy the word hibernation is fine. However when used to describe the specific process in reptiles Brumation may be more scientifically accurate. As research progresses in the whole area of herpetology it is obvious that new terms and new words will come into being.

I have always used the traditional and generic term hibernation and like others I have no inclination to change now. ;)

Kind Regards

Freddy :D






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