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#21 JerryMaffz

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 11:52 AM

While cold frames are great for raising ambient temps, its still important to remember that its actual basking temps that raise the core heat of the actual tortoise, so we still need basking facilities both inside and out ;)

 

Carapace AND plastron readings with the IR therm. might beg to differ Sue.



#22 wizzasmum

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 12:04 PM

Are you talking tiny hatchlings there Keith or huge elderly torts. I'm not getting the same results for my big guys with ambient temps alone :/  I'm just off out, but will switch off basking facilities in the greenhouse for the duration and measure temps on my return in a couple of hours. Torts will not be happy, but worth it for a bit of research for a couple of hours.



#23 JerryMaffz

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 12:25 PM

Are you talking tiny hatchlings there Keith or huge elderly torts. I'm not getting the same results for my big guys with ambient temps alone :/  I'm just off out, but will switch off basking facilities in the greenhouse for the duration and measure temps on my return in a couple of hours. Torts will not be happy, but worth it for a bit of research for a couple of hours.

No need Sue, the research has already been done...http://www.tortoiset...php?f=18&t=7772

 

I am going to monitor the situation but 'so far' my readings concur.

I would've thought that natural would be better for the big girls than lamps, as we can see that most lamps only heat a small area of big tort.

I would also imagine that a big tort would hold heat longer than a small one..

 

It's interesting stuff. I will see how I go. If Jerry can achieve desired temps naturally through the warmer months I'll be more than happy.



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Posted 01 June 2015 - 03:13 PM

Hi Keith, it took ages to read that very long article but it was really interesting and it is nice to see that my thoughts regarding the way our torts warm up is being addressed. I have been aware for years that the direct heat from above isn't the ideal and yet when keepers ask for advice for outdoor enclosures, an electrical heat source is very often mentioned.
I have managed to source some Lumicol and have sowed the 'design' seed in David's head. Hopefully I will be able to extend my torts outdoor experience at both ends of the season. X x xhugs x x x

#25 wizzasmum

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 05:03 PM

Hi Keith. The research might have been done, but that does not stop me doing my own lol. I've not read this article yet, but having just come home and checked my temps, the greenhouse measures 12.5 and 15 degrees without the back up on, way too low for a tortoise to eat and digest food. Maybe I have read what you are saying wrongly. Can I just say too, that if you were around several years ago while I was being slated by TT for claiming humid hides contributed to smooth growth, you would see me reason for always wanting to do my own research too. I never ever take anything I read as gospel lol I question everything and don't stop until I am happy. I was told that my theory did not hold water as there was no proof. My own and Editha's proof obviously didn't count for anything as neither had a fancy name or organisation tagged after our own. I see that more recently, this same doubting organisation now states that humidity plays a part in smooth growth. You've just got to laugh sometimes. Luckily I am not one of those people who stakes claims and takes people to court for stealing them lol.



#26 wizzasmum

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 05:09 PM

What I still don't understand about this article re cloches and greenhouses is that there seems to be no mention of the weather outdoors. There is no way a greenhouse will warm up sufficiently in bad weather although I can obviously understand its use in warm weather or I would not use one myself. The article mentions that this is tortoises basking, which they don't do in bad weather days even in a greenhouse with backup heat! Im thinking this experiment is either flawed or I'm not getting the gist of it.  



#27 JerryMaffz

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 06:22 PM

Well I'm not saying anyone's wrong or right here, but like you I also prefer to check out other's theories and base my opinion on my own findings. As for the bad weather , well I've been to a lot of areas where tortoises live, as I know you have..I'm sure you would agree that even in the summer there can be many days when the weather can be terrible..Perhaps tortoises haven't evolved to be at a constant temperature for months on end.

 I do have a humid hide in the indoor table, and yes Jerry does use it more often than not, so "had I been around!!" I would've done the same as now, tried it, saw it worked and continued to use it..I think the main thing with these is to give the option.

I'll apply the same to my outdoor set up, try out theories but follow my instincts and my findings..Don't worry about Jerry though, I do have back up lamps.....if needed.



#28 wizzasmum

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 06:53 PM

I'm just struggling to understand how this new Perspex is going to keep a greenhouse warmer than normal, well by warmer I mean up to basking temps obviously. Granted if it is uvb transmissible that is an advantage, but its not going to spread the warmth any more than normal Perspex is it and its not going to make any difference to the use of added heat? I think some of us are misunderstanding.  Many of us have been saying for years that a greenhouse or cloche is going to help with outdoor torts and obviously give a larger warm area than just an indoor basking lamp, which is why I have always advocated that torts get outdoors as much as possible, however the need for uvb is not going to change. Yes, they get the odd bad day in the wild, but nothing like so frequent as we do here. I don't believe its nearly so straight cut as 'they haven't evolved to be at constant temps for months on end', rather that they have evolved to cope with certain climates in certain areas. This takes into consideration such things as colouration, shape etc but its happened over millions of years, not just a few years in captivity.



#29 wizzasmum

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 06:59 PM

We couldn't possibly keep torts properly without the use of electricity Stella. ;)



#30 JerryMaffz

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 07:13 PM

Well time will tell..I can only go on my own findings, not the bigger picture, as everyones set-up, location etc. is different..Even on a dull day my cold frame can generate substrate temperatures akin to my indoor table, higher ambient and probably more light and UV, perhaps unit size is important here. To me, a coldframe isn't that different to a lamp..Both heat (and light) an area of space in which a tort can bask and you can generate a light/ temp gradient inside a coldframe quite easily...Truth told, my bigger problem is keeping temps down, not up.



#31 wizzasmum

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 07:26 PM

  • Can you explain more clearly Keith please. I have a local friend who has a market garden with polytunnels and large greenhouses. I'm struggling to understand how, when its quite cool in there at the moment, how it's possible to be up to normal basking temps in a small cold frame which obviously is not going to hold its heat too long. It just doesn't make sense to me at all. As I say my twin wall insulated greenhouse didn't gain more than 15 today with background heat turned off. With the electric stats running, it held up nicely. I'm also wondering what is going to happen when the temps rise at the end of the week!


#32 JerryMaffz

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 07:36 PM

Not sure I can explain Sue, perhaps it's the height to surface area ratio. Perhaps the heat sink effect is larger in a polytunnel or greenhouse. I'll just lift the lid up when the temps get too high as the unit will be redundant, though there is provision for graduated shade and airflow.



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Posted 01 June 2015 - 07:48 PM

We couldn't possibly keep torts properly without the use of electricity Stella. ;)


I didn't say we could.

#34 wizzasmum

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Posted 01 June 2015 - 10:18 PM

Apologies, I took post #24 to mean that when electricity was recommended, it was not needed. I do find the bit about heat from above not being ideal a bit misleading though, as torts in the wild have always been observed eating under the sun which is direct heat from above. This is what they have done for millions of years and I find it a bit worrying to think that people might think that by using lumisol, they can do away with basking lamps. Either way I hope it improves your own tortoises health overall.



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Posted 02 June 2015 - 05:38 AM

I think what sometimes happens is that posts are read in isolation rather than in the context they were written.....in this case as a response to basking under artificial heating rather than under natural sunlight, which as you correctly say is what tortoises have been doing for millions of years. To clarify......I believe prolonged heat(from above) from basking lights can't be ideal....
I am sure any method to help raise temperatures using natural UV and give all round heat will be of benefit. X x x hugs x x x

#36 wizzasmum

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 09:41 AM

I am still not getting a response to outdoor temps at this time, from anyone singing the praises of this 'experiment'.  As we all know there is not a natural population of tortoises in the UK, which is why we have to provide heat from above, this does not mean that it has to be close contact and does not mean that it has to be indoors, which is why many of us have gone on and on for years about the importance of tortoises being outdoors as much as possible. Yes, the more natural the better, but I have to say that tortoises do have prolonged contact with overhead heat in nature too. As always I will reiterate that the tortoise MUST have the choice and there MUST be varying areas of humidity/hydration too, so that it can replicate the wild as closely as possible. Obviously heat from all around to give the feel good factor has to be a good thing which is why we always suggest a background heat in outdoor hides to get the outdoor tortoise going in the morning. I'm still struggling to understand what Stella means by overhead heat from lamps being a bad thing though - could you elaborate Stella? If you are talking close contact, forced application then this is not what has been suggested by most experienced long term keepers anyway, having always suggested that the tortoises have a choice myself. Are you also saying that this uvb transmissible plastic has the propensity to increase the contact heat to tortoises bodies in a greenhouse compared with normal polycarb? I have been out to record the tortoises heat levels this morning without using a background heat and have to say I am not satisfied one bit that the theory holds water. Am I missing something?



#37 JerryMaffz

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 10:07 AM

Sue , I'm sorry, but I think you are missing something. You seem to be arguing about points that haven't been made. All the info you require has been offered to you. You also seem to have hijacked a thread about my tortoise in the photo gallery section to get your agenda across.

I'm surprised that Karen hasn't stepped in to get things back on topic by now. ..I'm happy to keep this discussion going, maybe on it's own thread though.



#38 wizzasmum

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 12:37 PM

Well, I am sorry you see it this way Keith. If points are brought up, them people are going to look at them and try to understand them, it would be silly not to, especially when we are looking to improve things for our tortoises. I think I have asked questions rather than argued and as I said, I think I must be missing something somewhere. maybe it is the terminology that has thrown me, I don't know. I've certainly not intended to hijack a thread and have only answered or queried points that you yourself have made. I've certainly not intended to argue. As you know, I give educational talks about tortoise husbandry occasionally,  so always on the lookout for improvements, but I'm not going to quote anything I do not understand. I'm not sure what agenda you are meaning and think maybe someone else is behind this latest post TBH.

As for Karen, I think she works very long hours, so might not be able to see any posts right now, I don't know, maybe I am wrong here. Many of us do juggle family life with jobs, our own animals and hobbies with helping out on forums when we can, so to think that people spend all day just checking the internet, might be a mistake. I know there are some who do, but it doesn't refer to everyone.

Hope we can get back to some normality now, but I'm still not sure of some points made in this thread, so if you could clarify I would be really grateful ;) 



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Posted 02 June 2015 - 12:40 PM

I never said overhead heat from lamps was a bad thing.....again that was a misinterpretation by the reader, what I said was that it wasn't IDEAL.......again, meaning in the context of other posts before that, methods other than basking lamps would be useful. If this research offers a different choice then that has to be something worth trying.
Just for interest my greenhouse reached 32degrees yesterday in the dull, windy, rainy, but occasionally sunny weather.

#40 JerryMaffz

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 12:56 PM

Well, I am sorry you see it this way Keith. If points are brought up, them people are going to look at them and try to understand them, it would be silly not to, especially when we are looking to improve things for our tortoises. I think I have asked questions rather than argued and as I said, I think I must be missing something somewhere. maybe it is the terminology that has thrown me, I don't know. I've certainly not intended to hijack a thread and have only answered or queried points that you yourself have made. I've certainly not intended to argue. As you know, I give educational talks about tortoise husbandry occasionally,  so always on the lookout for improvements, but I'm not going to quote anything I do not understand. I'm not sure what agenda you are meaning and think maybe someone else is behind this latest post TBH.

As for Karen, I think she works very long hours, so might not be able to see any posts right now, I don't know, maybe I am wrong here. Many of us do juggle family life with jobs, our own animals and hobbies with helping out on forums when we can, so to think that people spend all day just checking the internet, might be a mistake. I know there are some who do, but it doesn't refer to everyone.

Hope we can get back to some normality now, but I'm still not sure of some points made in this thread, so if you could clarify I would be really grateful ;) 

As I see it, all of your questions have been answered.  With all due respect, research has been done on this issue from Spain to Scandinavia...and published for everyone to see.  I'm happy to assist in any clarification you may need..Maybe you should start a thread.






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